Intro
Welcome to Pathways, a Macquarie Asset Management podcast where we provide fresh perspectives and insights for institutional investors and consultants about real assets, private markets, and macroeconomics.
Daniel McCormack: For decades, the grid was the most boring and unseen part of the energy conversation. Like the plumbing in your house, it was only noticed when things went wrong. But that's no longer the case. Audrey's paper, Grid Capex in the Age of Renewables and AI, makes the case that the grid is now the constraint on almost everything. The energy transition, the AI buildout, industrial growth. Hi everybody, my name's Daniel McCormack, and I'm Head of Research for Macquarie Asset Management. and today we're going to talk about Audrey Lee's latest paper in some detail. but we're going to touch on three things. One, how different the grid looks by region. 2, what aging and missing grids actually mean on the ground and what they mean for investors. And 3, what the latest is with data centre demand. So, Audrey, great to have you back on the Pathways podcast.
Audrey Lee: Thank you, Daniel. Pleasure to join.
Daniel McCormack: So, Audrey, before we dig into the detail, if there was sort of one sentence or one idea that you wanted the listeners to take away from today's podcast, what is that?
Audrey Lee: Yeah, I would say it's this one idea that the grid is the bottleneck now. We can certainly build the power. Renewables are being added faster than ever to the grid, but what we can't do at the same pace is to move it around and connect it. So now the grid is really the thing that everything else is waiting on. The AI buildout, the energy transition, even industrial growth, everything is waiting for the grid.
Daniel McCormack: I think that's a very good setup because today we're really going to go through the mismatches that are playing out in different places. So, let's just start with a bit of a geographical overview, if that's OK. You know, your headline number from the paper is $5.9 trillion. That is, we need $5.9 trillion of investment in the grid out to 2035. That's a huge number. But it hides a lot of regional variation, and, you know, not just in size, but in character. So, let's start with Europe, if that's OK, because it seems to be the clearest case of the money being there in principle, but politics and financing kind of deciding who actually pays. What's the situation in Europe with respect to the grid and the capex need?
Audrey Lee: Yeah, right, Daniel, I think Europe is a good place to start this conversation. So, I mean, the EU put a concrete number on that in December 25 with their European grids package and the estimate for what's needed to run it is about like, 1.2 trillion for the electricity grid through to 2040. Now, this is really an example where who pays gets explicit. Analysts looking at the financing mechanisms have basically concluded that Europe's grid transition will be paid for by consumers quietly, over many years, because the EU's own funding instruments cover only a small fraction of the need. Now, there's also a live fight over the congestion revenue, like money connected, collected when electricity prices differ across borders. The European Commission wants to earmark a share of it for grid investment, but countries like Sweden, that has already invested heavily in interconnection, see that as being penalised for having done the right thing already.
Daniel McCormack: And you know, just to make it very real for the listener, can you just give us a bit of a mental image for what sort of, you know, an underinvested European grid actually looks like on the ground? So, in the real world, what is that?
Audrey Lee: Yeah, I'll give you some headline numbers. Like, we're talking about 500, over 500 gigawatts of wind power sits in European connection queue right now. And we have more than half of the transmission projects needed by 2030 that are still waiting on permits. And, you know, that's not abstract for ordinary people either. Reports out of the Netherlands described around 12,000 companies waiting, waiting in a grid connection queue, and some new housing developments simply can't get connected because there's no local grid headroom.
Daniel McCormack: Yeah, that's a very concerning thing. A house can be built, but it just can't be plugged into the grid. You know, that's a very real-world consequence of what we're talking about here. Just shifting maybe to emerging markets, and, you know, this is where there's a lot of growth in power demand, you know. Electrification is clearly ongoing, you know. Europe's bottleneck, you know, is money and politics, but if we take a place like India, for example, it's more about timing. Is that fair to say?
Audrey Lee: Yeah, I think that's fair. India's problem is, to a large extent, timing. It is putting up renewables faster than it can build wires to reach them. So, at a federal level, the plan is basically a race to nearly double the grid by 2042. Though the interesting part is who's building it. India is quietly privatising transmission. We're talking about roughly 40% of the new lines that are being awarded are being awarded to private firms. Adani's is the biggest, and you have other like, private firms involved as well. And why that's happening, that's because the companies building solar and wind got tired of waiting for someone else to build a grid. So, they have started building the wires themselves, so that they can control their own projects and get it connected. We have people trying to jump the queue now. You have developers grabbing connection slot years earlier than they really need it, sometimes before the substation even exists. And there's so much of it happening that the regulator calls it 'squatting'. You have about 42 gigawatts of projects sitting on the grid slots with no power contract behind them whatsoever at all. that's why the grid regulator has now started revoking assets to clean the queue, just like some other European regulators have to do.
Daniel McCormack: So, is it fair to say that the grid is so scarce that a connection slot has become the asset?
Audrey Lee: Well, exactly, though I'll be fair to the story, privatising isn't private dominated. State-owned power grid still wins a lot of the work because they have a lower cost of capital. And execution is slipping as well. Of the projects due only about half came in on time, but that slippage is the thesis: the wires just can't keep pace with the generation.
Daniel McCormack: That's fascinating, Audrey. Jumping now to the other major emerging market, China, which is obviously a huge part of the overall equation here. What’s happening there?
Audrey Lee: Yeah, I'm glad that you mentioned China, Daniel. Certainly, like, China is still the largest grid build on the planet. We're talking about 700 billion across its two grid operators over 5 years. But it's just a different kind of story in China. It isn't a market reacting to demand. In fact, quite the opposite. It is a deliberate state program to build, so that it can move renewables and hydropower from the western interior region to the industrial east, through ultra-high voltage lines. And I would say the overall picture is quite similar. It's just muted. In China, you still have someone waits for the grid and you need someone to pay for it. But in the case of China, it's the state that settles both sides administratively instead of through market mechanisms and politics.
Daniel McCormack: Got it. Just bringing this part of the conversation to a close, like that one headline number, 5.9 trillion, which again, is just an absolutely huge number. But if we think about it on a regional basis, there's sort of three genuinely different problems here. Financing and politics in Europe, timing in India, and in China, a state building ahead of demand very, very deliberately.
Audrey Lee: Yeah, and underneath all three is the kind of the same problem if you like, that is capacity is rather limited. So, someone waits for it, and you also need someone to pay for it to solve the problem.
Daniel McCormack: Great, so I'd now like to shift gears, Audrey, and just talk a little bit about the age of grids, talk about missing grids, and what all of that means. In your paper, you talk about, both of these things, aging grids and missing grids as sort of two sides of the one problem. But let's take them one by one, and starting with aging, because I don't think people really have a feel for just how old this stuff is. Can you give the audience some numbers on how old the grids are?
Audrey Lee: Sure. For example, in Europe, 40% of distribution grids are already over 40 years old. And forecast out there says by 2030, we are going to reach more than 50%. And this isn't just 'things get worn out'. You have physically older transformers and circuit breakers that were engineered for one-directional power flow, and you have rooftop solar and EV chargers pushing power back into the same infrastructure. That is a genuinely different physical stress than it was designed for. So, it's a different kind of grid as well.
Daniel McCormack: You mentioned the Iberian blackout in the paper. Has anything like that happened since?
Audrey Lee: Unfortunately, yes, and it's starting to become a pattern, not just like, a one-off. In 2025 we saw blackouts in Chile and Mexico, and of course, the Iberian blackout you mentioned. And there was also a substation fire at Heathrow that shut down the airport, and you had an arson attack on grid infrastructure in Berlin. But what ties those incidents together is that aging, thinning-margin grid has very little redundancy left. A single point of failure, like, could be mechanical, could be weather-related or some deliberate attack, but all these problems will cascade further than it used to, because there's no spare capacity to absorb the shock anymore.
Daniel McCormack: Yeah, it sounds like the problems are only growing, and, you know, only going to grow further into the future if we don't take action. So, can you maybe give the audience a sort of, you know, a real-world example of what an aging grid like actually looks like and what the sort of consequences are of that aging?
Audrey Lee: Sure, and here's a very physical one. Transformer and high voltage circuit breaker lead times are now two to three years in Europe and North America, twice what they were back in 2019 pre-COVID. And that matters because you can approve a capex plan tomorrow, but you will still be waiting for years for the actual hardware.
Daniel McCormack: And, and let's turn to the sort of missing grid. Where is the grid just simply absent, not old?
Audrey Lee: In the emerging markets. For example, in South Africa, they are planning about 15,000 kilometres of new transmission line, and they need another one hundred and thirty three thousand GVA of new transformer capacity by 2034. That's a scale of what's missing in just one country, and if you scale it up to cover all other emerging markets, that's a huge number. And the gap isn't really about generation anymore as well. In most of these places, it's also about inspection, maintenance, tower resilience, and the specialist services that keep thin, aging, or even newly built lines actually standing through weather and load growth, that connects straight back to the infrastructure adjacency thesis from the earlier episode.
Daniel McCormack: You, we're talking about vegetation management, inspection, testing.
Audrey Lee: That's exactly that opportunity set, just relocated to grids that are either very old or badly built.
Daniel McCormack: So aging and missing grids aren't really two different problems. They're, they're the same underlying shortage of resilient capacity, but it's just showing up as sort of too old in Europe and not there yet in Africa and emerging markets, generally. Is that fair to say?
Audrey Lee: Yeah, I think so, and in both cases, someone has to wait. In Europe, that's 12,000 companies stuck in a Dutch connection queue. That's 640 million people without electricity access at all. That dollar figure is different by orders of magnitude, but the underlying scarcity is the same.
Daniel McCormack: Great. Let's switch to data centre demand, which is, you know, a fascinating area, and an area that's having a real impact on energy infrastructure and grids in particular. And perhaps let's start with something that's not talked about very much, which is regulation. Like, why is regulation relevant here, Audrey?
Audrey Lee: Yeah, the regulator matters here because everything downstream of this depends on it. For example, in June 2026, the FERC ordered all six US grid operators, so the PJM, MISO, SPP, CAISO, and a few others, to either justify or rewrite their tariffs for larger loads, like data centres, within 60 days. And the core question that FERC is wrestling with is exactly what we're talking about here. When a data centre needs billions of new transmission, does it pay the full cost, or does that cost get spread across everyone else's electricity bill?
Daniel McCormack: And how real is this cost-spreading risk, like for households and retail customers? You know, is this just theoretical, or, or is it already showing up in bills?
Audrey Lee: There are studies out there earlier this year that put the added cost from data centres at roughly $23 billion US dollars so far. Well, to be fair to the industry though, the picture is contested. So, some, for example, Senator Elizabeth Warren's claim that residents near data centres saw a bill rise 267%. When she said that, she was referring to the wholesale prices, not what shows up on a household bill. So, if we're thinking about average US residential prices, that's actually up around 40% over 5 years, and data centres are one driver among several, that you also have aging grids and equipment costs, among others that are driving up that bill. But the politically interesting bit is that you already see several hyperscalers pre-emptively pledge to cover their own costs. Microsoft made a broad pledge in January 2026. Several tech firms signed a non-binding ratepayer protection pledge at the White House in March as well.
Daniel McCormack: So, the industry is kind of seeing the backlash coming and is trying to get ahead of it.
Audrey Lee: Right, and the regulatory mechanism for that is the large load tariff. As of mid-2026, about 24 US states have approved at least one designed specifically to make sure large customers cover their own incremental costs rather than socialising them with, you know, average citizens.
Daniel McCormack: That's really interesting, and it's a rational kind of response from industry, to do that, right? But just turning to data centres, power supply, because data centres use a lot of power, they need power now. They sort of just can't wait the 5 to 8 years or however long it is to get a connection to the grid. So, Audrey, how are data centres solving this problem?
Audrey Lee: Yeah, Daniel, data centres are mainly turning to three different technologies. First of all, you have the most popular one, which is gas turbines, especially in the US. And it's so popular that it is now sold out. The three major manufacturers, including GE Vernova, that control roughly 75% of the market, they now all have lead times that stretch up to 8 years, and you see prices that are up as much as 300% in the past three years for gas turbines. In addition to gas turbines, other options out there include fuel cells, for example. That is the fast mover. Bloom Energy alone landed about 7.5 billion in data centre-related contracts in a single 90-day window in early 2026, including a big, like, multi-gigawatt deal with Oracle and its partnership with Brookfield expanded fivefold to 25 billion by the end of June 2026. Finally, another one that's being discussed quite frequently is nuclear and SMR, small modular reactors. That is more long-term though. As of May 2026, every major hyperscaler has signed at least one nuclear deal. But this would be a longer-term game as these nuclear SMRs take a long time to build.
Daniel McCormack: Got it. So, it's a bit of a three-way split here. We're talking, you know, turbines for scale, but with really long lead times. Fuel cells perhaps for speed. And then we've got nuclear, which is a bit more of a longer duration or longer term bet.
You said that, you know, the behind-the-meter workaround is mostly a US thing, because the grid there can't move fast enough, but, like, is anyone outside the US hitting, hitting the same wall?
Audrey Lee: Yes, indeed, and I would say that Southeast Asia is the clearest case here. It is more or less the same story. In the data centre hotspots, the grid is already tapped out. Like, for example, Johor is effectively exhausted, and you can't really fix that quickly. Augmenting a grid at scale runs like 5 to 10 years and even ordering a single large transformer is a multi-year wait because there's a global shortage.
Daniel McCormack: Thanks Audrey. Turning to batteries, like, where do batteries fit into all of this? I think, you know, people default to thinking of them as backup power. Is that the right way to think about them?
Audrey Lee: Well, it used to be, but not anymore. Traditional data centres use a 1 to 1 ratio of diesel generator for backup, but on newer projects, it drops to just 15 to 40% coverage. Why? Because now a battery is filling that gap. But I would say the more interesting shift is batteries becoming a queue-jumping tool as well, not just backup anymore. I'll give you an example here. In like December last year, a study modelling real data found that a traditional firm-only grid connection adds about 800 million in system costs per gigawatt of new data centre load. But if you pair it with a flexible grid connection with a 'bring your own capacity' kind of battery arrangement, that can eliminate that added cost and get about 500 megawatts of facilities online in about two years instead of 5 to 7. And there's also another live, named example. You have Portland General Electric work with developer Aligned and battery specialist Calibrant to connect a data centre using 30 megawatts or a 60-megawatt hour battery, rather than waiting for conventional infrastructure.
Daniel McCormack: Yeah, so batteries solve a different problem than turbines or fuel cells, and it's not base load, but, you know, speed and the ability to absorb the swings in load that we're seeing from AI.
Audrey Lee: Exactly. Turbines and fuel cells answer the question of how do I get firm power and then for battery, they answer, how do I get connected fast and how do I survive load swinging from 10 to 90% capacity in milliseconds. That's something no combustion turbine is built to do.
Daniel McCormack: Yeah, OK, so behind the meter, it's not one story. It's really three technologies, solving, you know, three different types of constraints. Like, really, really interesting. Thanks, Audrey. I'd now like to sort of turn to the final section of the podcast, which is a bit of a fun one, and that is, that is quickfire questions, if that's OK, Audrey. So, no long answers here, just short and sharp. Ten years from now, is the grid the hero of this story or the villain?
Audrey Lee: That's a tough one. I mean, hero, if the investment shows up on schedule. Villain, if it doesn't. You know, the, the AI story doesn't stop, it just relocates to wherever that has grid headroom.
Daniel McCormack: Fantastic. China and Europe, very different grid strategies. Which one would you bet on?
Audrey Lee: I mean, they are really different bets, like not really comparable. China for pace and scale, but for Europe is financing sophistication once the politics settle.
Daniel McCormack: Gas turbines, fuel cells, nuclear, we discussed all of these. Which, you know, which behind-the-meter bet ages best, do you think?
Audrey Lee: I would say batteries plus fuel cells for the next 5 years, nuclear for the 10-year view, once the first SMR fleet proves that they are indeed workable.
Daniel McCormack: Perhaps a cheeky one from me, but one thing in your paper you'd add if you were rewriting it today?
Audrey Lee: I would say it's the regional variation we just spent 15 minutes on. I'll give China its own section next time.
Daniel McCormack: Yeah, it makes sense. China's certainly, you know, a huge part of, a huge part of the story here. Well, thanks very much, Audrey. It's a very interesting topic, and, you know, it's one that's certainly not going away, given how old the grids are, given all of the pressure that is on them, and all of the investment that is very clearly needed. If there's one thing I think people should take away from today's podcast, it's that, you know, the grid isn't one story anymore. It's, you know, as many as 5 running on different clocks, funded by different people, and very much colliding in real time with the fastest moving demand shock, coming from data centres, that we've seen for decades.
So, Audrey, again, thank you.
For our listeners, please go and read the paper. It's fascinating. There's plenty of facts and details in there. You'll find a link in the show notes. We'll be back with more on this, you know, as the regulatory fight continues to play out.